After indie hacking, I absolutely relish saying no to job offers
Ever since I started indie hacking, I've felt like I'm broken for the job market.
Sometimes, this feels shitty. It's like I've lost something — my determination, work ethic, or motivation.
My parents and siblings think I'm crazy and/or lazy for not selling my soul at 50 hours per week increments. It can be isolating and maddening, of course.
Other times, though, it can be empowering. Indie hacking puts a chip on my shoulder that can be motivating and enlivening.
Last week, I was entertaining an offer from a large company. They offered an "unlimited" time off policy, which I pressed them on with many questions. My recreation time is extremely important to me.
They gave somewhat vague answers, saying they want their employees to be happy and that they trust their employees to get the work done.
When I asked my next question on the policy, a would-be boss asked:
"Are you sure you want this job?"
He wondered why I was so curious about vacation time.
In my head: Well ... because it's my life. Dick.
Flustered, I pretty much stopped asking questions after that.
After the call, I thought about an article I read on here that @courtlandallen shared. The article was "The joy of fuck-you money."
It perfectly captures the utter delight it is to tell someone "fuck you" when you have the freedom to do so. It's especially satisfying if they've disrespected you.
Fortunately, I have some of that fuck you money. And fortunately, I know indie hacking can keep it coming.
So, I turned down the first offer. Then they bumped up the salary.
When I turned down the second offer, a hiring manager asked to have a call. I told her I felt disrespected and that their "unlimited time off" policy was a sham. I remained calm, but she could tell I was clearly still upset about it.
Hilariously, my candor opened her up.
She shared her issues with the policy, that it doesn't cover maternity leave and there's a culture that discourages vacation time.
After the call, I laughed for a while, and embraced the joy of saying "fuck you."
I'd rather toil, sweat, and potentially fail with my freedom than sell it to a company that doesn't give a shit about me.
I've supped from the indie chalice and tasted its sweet liberation. Now it's hard to imagine ever re-entering the traditional job market.
Lately I've done a lot of thinking about autonomy, the concept at the core of this post. And I've begun to be very careful to separate the idea of "freedom" from the idea of "autonomy." Here's how the author Matthew Crawford defines autonomy:
What I love about your post, @codetoski, is you largely seem to be operating under the principle of autonomy: you're willing to rule yourself, even at the cost of a lot of "toil" and "sweat," rather than subjecting yourself to heteronomy.
But I see a lot of indie hackers fall under the belief that the goal is to achieve freedom from rule altogether — rule by others and also self-rule. This might sound abstract, but I've seen more concrete examples of it than I can count. It's when people quit their jobs and then implode due to a lack of self-discipline. It's when entrepreneurs finally achieve a lot of financial success and then "retire early" and reliably become depressed. I call it the "hedonic doom loop."
Autonomy is a really great way to put it. I think this is what I struggled with in all my years working at corporations. I just couldn't toe the party line. If you have an inkling of creativity or sense of rebelliousness, you die a little bit each time you work on something that you don't think has value. You can try to push for change at companies, but it often falls on deaf ears, so you just go along with it (and die a little bit more).
If you're autonomous, whether you succeed or fail, you at least had agency and integrity in the actions that you took to get to where you are.
"If you have an inkling of creativity or sense of rebelliousness, you die a little bit each time you work on something that you don't think has value."
Absolutely. As a result, you become creatively dead at work. It stifles so many valuable and interesting ideas before they're given air.
This strikes close to home for me. The first time I quit my job to chase autonomy was back in 2015. I left an engineering job to self publish novels and travel. I had already been writing on the side part-time and was doing okay-ish considering the time I was putting in. I calculated that I should be able to put out a novel a month and substantially grow my audience and earnings extremely quickly.
Then I quit, started traveling Thailand, and it turns out that having fun with people in your hostel every day is a lot more attractive than locking yourself in a room for 8-10 hours a day to pound furiously on a keyboard.
I... did not achieve my dreams of superstardom authorship. But I have a lot of interesting and treasured memories so I have zero regrets and would do it again, just with a touch more discipline and better aligned expectations.
Totally agree @channingallen. What a great definition too, "giving a law to oneself." That's pretty empowering.
I believe that many non-indie hackers also aspire to this autonomy despite their jobs.
They see huge paychecks, big houses, or boats and associate material possessions with autonomy (not that there is anything wrong with that if that's what you choose). Many just haven't quite realized what it means to be in a system that entails so much of their lives.
I really like that definition.
True autonomy requires self-regulation. That's why I love entrepreneurship. Because of what it demands the individual to become:
I'm just coming off a year long sabbatical from a nice exit in 2020. FU money if I was single, but my # to ride off into the sunset is higher.
The sabbatical taught me to keep locked into a growth mindset, or face a lot of inner angst. An idle mind is the devil's workshop as the saying goes.
Best to stay busy and find the next way to invent value.
Independence in indie hacking feels too good to give up.
How do you assess opportunities now compared to when you were looking for employment?
Love this!
And yes, from an employee perspective unlimited PTO is a scam dressed as a benefit. It always raises a yellow-flag in interviews for me.
But, one thing I've seen a little bit and liked is companies doing "unlimited PTO, minimum 3 weeks required".
I like this because essentially it's the same as 3 weeks PTO, but you actually feel comfortable using it. In fact you HAVE to use it. The reason people save PTO is because of how powerless you are when you don't have any.
What if a wedding comes up next month?
What if a child gets sick?
What if I want to enjoy a nice day outside?
I think the "unlimited, but X is the minimum" is a good solution to this.
Unlimited PTO sounds good on paper, but in reality it's a race to the bottom.
Nobody wants to stand out, so everyone errs on the conservative side.
Which is why employers love it.
You'd probably be let go if your PTO deviates substantially from what the median/mean is, and that's before they can even guilt/shame you for not being a "team player."
It might be a race to the bottom, but if the employer sets a floor (ex. Minimum 3 weeks), then the worst case isn't really that bad.
I'd rather have unlimited PTO + must use a minimum 3 weeks than have 3 weeks of PTO because in the later case I'd just save all my PTO "just in-case".
Yes, a mandatory minimum of course is ideal, but not too many companies offer that to my knowledge.
Thank you for sharing this. I love how assertive you have become after "living on the other side."
It's a powerful story of you not accepting the power dynamics that our educational journey has made us expect and submit to.
You clearly spotted a false promise and pressed them on it. Your time off matters, because it's YOUR time. Doesn't matter much to them, as it seems.
I feel similarly unemployable — at the very least by traditionally-minded businesses that consider me a "human resource" and not a valued creative partner. I have gained an indestructible level of self-respect throughout my self-employed journey, and I see the same in you. Thank you —again— for sharing this. The more stories like this we see, the more we can collectively move towards work relationships built on trust and mutual respect instead of oppressive power dynamics.
Thanks @arvidkahl!
" ... the power dynamics that our educational journey has made us expect and submit to." This is super powerful. We build on so many assumptions and systems that we don't think to question. Our lives can pass us by before realizing we haven't made a choice of our own.
Self-respect/self-love is so critical. I still struggle with it somewhat often but the more you practice it — especially in life-changing choices in work or relationships — the more natural it becomes to honor yourself instead of others' standards and expectations.
Very interesting story and perspective!
But Paul, how do we change the policy? Not just in that company, in all companies.... Not everyone has "fuck-you" money....
I would love to see more people like you taking on roles in large organizations and change this attitude.
Amen, brother! Great story.
There's nothing like having that FU money and having the freedom to be your own boss and to tell recruiters what they're offering isn't good enough.
I've been working in the industry for about 20 years now and thankfully have saved enough to leave the regular 9-5 to do the indie hacking thing for a bit.
I'm with you. I think I'm ruined for regular work now. I got tired of working for other people and corporate life where you have to follow orders and take what's given to you.
I might eventually go back to working for others one day, but I have a feeling that I'll also be very picky about who I work for.
Cheers, @allenu. I feel you.
"I might eventually go back to working for others one day, but I have a feeling that I'll also be very picky about who I work for."
We all should be picky. ... Puts down a copy of the Communist Manifesto ... Laborers negotiating fair conditions and wages helps everyone. I'm hoping that the hiring manager that opened up to me either quit or voiced her concerns/frustrations.
It makes me laugh smile when I see companies complaining about entitled workers and the great resignation ... when the same companies are often exploiting tax loopholes, receiving subsidies, or offering salve wages.
It's crazy to me when I see friends take a new job for a 10% bump in pay ... pay that they can't even use except for 10 days a year and rare weekends in which they're not exhausted. We have only one life, after all.
lol. I love this.
I also told an employer to fuck off this year and it was great. Who else has some epic stories on quitting or declining offers?
Hay quiénes no pueden funcionar si no hacen lo que quieren.
Otros, ni siquiera se plantean qué es lo que quieren.
Si seguir los instintos conlleva placer moral, pero desdicha material, si no se arrastra a un tercero con ello, todo está bien.
Gracias por la experiencia.
I quit my very well-paying job at Microsoft around 5 years ago.
I took a calculated risk by pursuing my MBA from a top univ, and later starting up. I am quite happy where I am making much much less money-wise (I moved back to India), my time is under my control, and I am not answerable to anyone other than myself and my family.
The thing that I miss most is that I am now NOT surrounded by super smart people all the time who challenge me and help me grow. I underestimated how much I enjoyed those intellectually stimulating discussions I had at work.
Love this. And totally relate to missing people and a team. Other people are a great motivator for me.
Love, love, love this! Boostrapping/Indiehacking is hard, but I hope to never go back to an employee situation again.
My life, my mental health, and my relationships are too important to put on pause for someone else to make money off my time.
The discussion on Autonomy is great too - that's the perfect word for it!
I feel ypu 😔💪
I feel the same way somewhat. When I tell my parents I want to work part-time instead of slaving away 40-50h a week they are always like "And you're going to live off what?"
BRUH, I've lived of 800€ a month for 5 years while being a student. You think I can't like off 2.000€ net at 20h a week?
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That has definitely been a mindset for me lately. I don't think it started with indie-hacking, but freelancing. I compared the working conditions, the pay gap and the comfortability of having your own outlet on Upwork vs working a tight 9-hour shift and it was an easy task.
something to work on this . Absolutely <a href-"https://bestforhomes.ca/best-standing-desk.html">right>/a>
Yet, I see a ton of non mainstream programmers fall under the conviction that the objective is to accomplish independence from rule by and large — rule by others and furthermore self-rule. This could sound conceptual at https://paintballzoo.com/best-paintball-hoppers/, however I've seen more substantial instances of it than I can count. It's when individuals quit their positions and afterward collapse because of an absence of self-control. It's when business visionaries at last accomplish a ton of monetary achievement and afterward "resign early" and dependably become discouraged. I consider it the "libertine destruction circle."
Great perspective Paul thanks for sharing. Until recently I worked for a big US tech giant which gave me 3 weeks vacation per yr. However the issue was any time I needed to take it there was always a problem and it was never "convenient" for them. Of course they cannot stop me taking it but they would make it extremely difficult by asking me to transition my projects to others, leave detailed documentation, have a backup plan in case anything "crops up" etc. It ended up taking me a week to plan for the 5 days I'd be gone. Taking any more than 1 week at a time was frowned upon and for one year I didn't take any time off at all.
The interesting thing was that my counterparts in Europe were all taking months off without question because they were protected by EU laws vs in the US where there isn't even any laws for maternity leave!
Damn. The U.S. has some messed-up labor laws. I'm glad you got out!
I totally understand what you mean. Why do you need to find a job? Are your projects still not making enough money? To be honest I am in the same situation my community for entrepreneurs is now making around $190/month which is far from paying rent but I also really don't feel like working for someone else...
https://rfhoward.medium.com/the-worker-empowering-alternative-to-the-unlimited-paid-time-off-scam-f2134e4bdba8 - what unlimited PTO really means is nothing is tracked and therefore nothing is owed.
Still your story is confusing - having "some" fuck you money is like being a little pregnant.
LMAO. I think "fuck you" money can be on a spectrum.
It really depends how many people you can afford to say "fuck you" to.
If it's just employers, that requires a low amount, e.g. OP declining a job offer because he has savings/indie hacking income.
If it's employers and businesses you patronize, that requires a higher amount, e.g. rich businessmen who despise the mask mandate in airports can just fly private.
If it's all employers, businesses, and governments, that requires an insanely-high amount, e.g. billionaires that can bribe politicians to do their bidding or even get out of jail, like Jeffrey Epstein's wealthy clients.
Ah the spectrum of fuck you. But that spectrum has some hard lines in it. In Dickensian times there was the line between those that could live indefinitely on their savings and those that would eventually starve.
These days the hard line is different. As you point out it doesn't take much money to not be desperate enough to have to take any offer of employment. I think that's why employers are trying to control not just money but all social interaction as well.
Yes you can turn down their paycheck but can you turn down all the human contact they can offer? That's why return to office has become so heated and how a pandemic can spark the great resignation.
I think that's why OP ultimately turned down their offer but the door is probably still open to a company that can offer the right social environment.
Or to put it another way fuck you was almost always available in any culture to someone willing to be exiled to a Siberia equivalent.
True fuck you these days means being able to use Indie Hacking or whatever other mechanism to fill up your day meaningfully. Even a billionaire might struggle with that problem if low Earth orbit doesn't amuse. In Silicon Valley you see very, very rich people all the time who have extremely pedestrian jobs just because otherwise they are cut off.
"Ah the spectrum of fuck you." haha I love this.
And fantastic points about meaningfulness. It doesn't matter much how you make that fuck you money if it doesn't fulfill you or energize you. That is a super important aspect of life and work — and why indie hacking is so appealing to so many. It affords, to some extent, the opportunity to make money from a fulfilling pursuit.
Yes, the social aspect is of very understated importance and probably explains -- like you said -- why rich people still do "extremely pedestrian jobs."
I used to work as a bartender a few years ago before I did indie hacking full-time.
Oh God do I miss the daily social interactions at my workplace. The chatter, the small talk, the jokes, the banter with colleagues, the stories I hear from customers, the overall happy atmosphere...
...has but now been replaced by total silence as I wake up, work through my day, relax, and go to sleep all alone.
Well according to your post
Not only does starting a business cut you off from that environment but it also forms a wedge between you and anyone still doing the corporate life.
When something like the great resignation happens its not the money, its the toxic environment driving it. Another words positive social interaction isn't so understated - its a primary factor in corporate employment.
Totally agree.
Having "some" fuck you money means that I have money to say no. It's casual phrasing in an IH post, not a tax return. 😉
Good idea - a tax return would clear this up :-)