Why most startup founders become liars
There is huge pressure to lie. I am going to rant, and then, ask you: where do you find any semblance of truth and useful information from startup founders?
If you pitch to investors, you probably sell a dream, even when you know there are faults to some of your logic and projections.
When you are going after customers, there is a lot of pressure to convince them that you are going to be around for years to come. Anyone else who's read Crossing the Chasm understands that in time, we need conservative buyers - and they need to see that famous people love your thing, and that big famous companies already put their trust in you.
And so, we're pressured to inflate, exaggerate and flat out lie. It's hard to find fault with those who do so - since the finish line looks so good. We could get out from under. We could stop being tempted to believe the bullshit that invades our favorite forums. We could find that if we stick with our thing long enough, work it for enough years of seven-day weeks, perhaps we, too, will have a success story.
I read so much in IH and ProductHunt that reeks to high heaven of bullshit. I recall a podcast from someone who claimed to have turned down an offer in the millions for something that suggests colors for your IG posts. Oh, and it lets you do this to your heart's content with one IG Business Profile for free.
I call bullshit. I'm the founder of RiteKit, four SaaS products for social media marketing automation and so, I'm thoroughly confident that for the vast majority of potential consumers for her app, when they get what they need for one IG account, they will never need more.
She insists that her customers are in the thousands and is growing exponentially.
And then, there's the belle of community development - but if you ask her what her main community is, you join and find dead air. No one is talking - ever.
Methinks she's pushing her courses on us founders.
It's all blue skies and clear vistas.
What I like about IH is that easily, at least 10% of us are not bullshit artists. I'm probably being generous when I say 10% so, where do you find actionable information from startup founders?
One thing I am incredibly careful with is making grand promises for quick cash. I've been told by uncountable "social marketing experts" to use over-promising in my website copy (for my books and courses) because "that's how it's done."
Self-inflation and short-term-thinking are so pervasive that people just default to it when they first try selling or building an audience around themselves and their work.
Maybe there's a heuristic that helps here: either the person is a dreamer, or they're a dream seller. I know full well that ever since I sold my business, I've moved towards a media role, and that comes precariously close to the dream selling community. I strive to stay authentically myself, building long-term relationships over grabbing short-term profits (as I already had a massive exit, I have no need or desire to squeeze my peers and pull up the ladder.)
Honestly, actionable information from honest founders is a rare commodity, and you'll have to keep a skeptical frame of mind when interacting with anyone sharing anything in our communities — this forum included. If someone is genuinely helpful over time, you'll know.
In a way, the removal of gatekeepers has made filtering the grifters from the gems a very hard task.
It's unfortunate that there is pressure for startup founders to lie and exaggerate in order to sell their products or secure investments.
As a consumer or investor, it can be difficult to know what information to trust. However, it's important to remember that not all startup founders are dishonest and there are resources available for finding reliable and actionable information. It's great to hear that at least 10% of the community on IH are not "bullshit artists."
In terms of finding trustworthy information, seeking out independent reviews, doing thorough research, and networking with other professionals in the industry can all be helpful strategies.
This is SO true!! I have seen this happen in a startup I was very closely associated with. The founder after a point forgot that he is lying and started believing his own lies. I understand BS is required to get attention. But getting into a habit will only get you to a place where its very difficult to come back from.
I think there's the sunk-time thing happening, too: we work our startup for long enough and may get to the point where we'd do anything to make it happen.
Yes. Pressure from all sides does make that happen. More the reason to setup and follow a process for yourself with personal metrics. Like "when do I conclude that something is working or not". Its difficult, but ideally an entrepreneur eats difficult for breakfast!!
Try listening to the IH podcast, starting from the first one and really listening to each one. @csallen has done an EXCELLENT job of talking to successful founders and discussing with them what they did and how they did it to become profitable and successful.
Or read through the hundreds of interviews found on this site that @csallen did with founders before this site became as popular as it is now.
Sure maybe some of the forum posters here and elsewhere don't give the full recap / advice or what you are looking for. Sure many here are trying to promote their own product / service, but many of us here do find actionable information from other founders and even wannabe founders.
Don't be so cynical, but yeah you need to be able to wade through the BS.
I used to listen too the podcast, every episode.
The IG app founder I alluded to in my main post, above, see the comments on:
https://www.indiehackers.com/forum/bootstrapping-to-1-million-in-two-years-as-a-non-technical-founder-with-christy-laurence-of-plann-fb8c201372
https://www.indiehackers.com/post/i-bootstrapped-to-1m-in-my-first-year-without-knowing-how-to-code-ask-me-anything-d642eda4a1
I am not alone in my bullshit detector flying far into the res...
"Can you give some prove about your revenue"
(Her answer edited out)
"All this revenue porn without solid prove is just new content strategy
You are number 136 in the free photo apps ,app that make photos effects that even not using some API to send the photos to insta . Just getting alerts when manually send it I really don't believe it . Sorry ."
And a shit-ton of deleted comments.
Ah this was a great episode! I really liked Christy's story.
Why doubt that she is profitable and earns revenue? She doesn't owe it to anyone to prove that. As she states in her comments from the links you provided: "..sustaining a team of 35 necessitates having some sort of revenue" (paraphrased).
Regardless if you are too cynical to believe other founders/indiehackers are earning money on their projects, it shouldn't stop you from building or growing your own. Take what they say at face value, learn something from it if you can and apply it to your own project. Even if it was BS, hopefully you learned something from that BS.
The propensity to call BS so quickly, especially in this community, shocks me. And I think it was exactly what @csallen hoped to avoid when he built this community.
Craig, when it's a market or industry I know little about, I would not be cynical. I have zero domain experience in the travel industry; my wrath would be most unlikely to be directed towards you. (In fact, I profoundly admire the unfettered openness you display with your October 6, 2021 post. We nearly never see this in IH. Much respect.)
As for Christy, I'm the founder of RiteKit. Our hashtag generator for photos and text for IG and Twitter is over 12 years in continuous development. The closest thing we have to her product in our Instagram Account Coach Reports - https://app.ritetag.com/instagram-coach-reports/e0a9b346-9e31-476c-b275-9ef450535436 is one that you can view without login. I think I know a bit about the market for Instagram tools.
*****
Kindly consider that people called Adam Neumann on what he did with hubris on WeWork. Some of revere John Carreyrou for his Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup article, leading to the downfall of Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos.
I feel that also within IH, we do fellow founders and startup aspirants more service than harm when we voice cynicism with what sounds like bloated numbers - to those with domain experience.
I'm sorry that you found my stance shocking.
We live in an ecosystem where all news are positive, building companies is so much fun and everyone is crushing it. I've been on multiple podcasts/media articles and it's always a story on how great you're doing. Partly because of your ego ( not wanting to be the only person in the industry failing ), partly because interviewers want to portray another "amazing entrepreneur" not a loser.
But reality is - entrepreneurship is hard, most of us have no idea what we're doing and feel like we're failing every single day. And that's fine. Don't get bamboozled by podcasts and startup articles. 🙏❤️
Thanks for posting about this, the grounding stories that we rarely speak about or may be neglect cause yeah they are not as exciting to any one as the great overnight success stories that sell.
There are still massive success that happen overnight but these are not the norm and they don't often happen because of skill or talent (only). There are a ton of factors that has to align for such hokey stick stories to happen. The majority is just the norm :)
Two points:
There are liars and there are dreamers. They are often hard to distinguish between the two. Do you call a dreamer a liar if a dream is unrealized? No. But you can easily call a liar a liar.
There's a 80/20 ratio (or even 99/1) in the startup/indie hacking world. 80% of people are incentivized to make money. 20% of people are incentivized to make a lifestyle for themselves. It's really nobody's place to judge the incentive, but how one may deceive to get to that end is largely subjective. Nobody likes to see people get ripped off.
Where do you find actionable information? You read books or stories of model founders. I started reading Steve Blank books before I even understood this stuff. I then learned a lot from various founders here who made it big (1%ers). They eventually wrote books that have helped shape my model as well. (MAKE, Embedded Entrepreneur, etc).
Authenticity means so much in these communities. I would never listen to advice from somebody who is willing to tarnish their name for a quick dollar.
Love that - liars and dreamers! I'm still a dreamer, alas.
I fault not the dreamer; I do take issue with those who will lie to our faces.
*****
I've seen Steve Blank's lectures and done customer validation boards, etc. There's much to take away - but we need to keep in mind that while he isn't from California, he's been there so long that he tends to talk from the context of those in California or at least in a startup hub city. The rules are different for most of us.
What's more, get out the building is not practical when you are not selling something for all people, like pizza, and for which people are not bending over backwards to give you useful feedback.
While he does live and breathe SV startups, the advice is practical and used by many across the industry. He inspired giants like the Kelley twins at IDEO and many books about customer validation. His messages are quite simple and practical. That our customers are the roadmap and founders are the vehicle.
I think it really accelerated with the whole build in public movement. People quickly found you need to project success to gain attention, which then would lead to success if you can then monetize that audience.
Perhaps some people justified it with thinking of it as 'fake it till you make it' and that they are still 'adding value' by giving others hope but its just another form of con artistry.
@leteyski @seattlehacker Hence my very unpopular opinion on transparency - https://www.indiehackers.com/post/share-revenue-and-unique-value-proposition-and-dont-be-surprised-when-you-re-copied-0d3e07e187
I've suggested this before and few seem to agree, but when you share what people love about your product and also share financials (MRR, ARR, LTV, active customers - anything like this), you are asking to be copied.
Even worse, your numbers are probably both too high and also too low, whatever they are.
Why 50K MRR is too low
If they make their way to someone at a large company who would make the purchase decision or influence the purchase decision for your product, they see your 50K MRR as a reason to hold off. To them, you are circling the drain, limping along, might not pull through... They probably wont lose their job for paying for a year of something that dies in a month, but it will be a strike. It will get them closer to being fired.
Why 5K MRR is too high (That isn't a typo; $5,000 MRR)
If the guy lives in the third world, with a four-year degree in comp sci, he may be earning well under $1K/month, and for a 40-50 hr, 5~6 day week.
He sees that he cannot do everything you've done, but he doesn't need to. He has his own ideas, and has toiled fruitlessly with them for years. He would just like some easy money, enough to let him leave the soul-sucking job so he can focus on his project. And to do this, he gets to skip over all the iteration you've done, and just do the one killer thing in your current state product, offer it for half the price, knowing that even if that doesn't work out, he can blow it out on an AppSumo lifetime deal and, with his economic situation, be set for years.
I couldn't agree more, I don't like this culture of inflating everything growing. I think with most founders having a chip on shoulders' are just compelled to lie to LOOK GOOD. I believe it's fine to be NOT FANCY and I choose the truth any day, coz given enough time and experience, you get to catch the lies and inflated values and hence you feel comfortable with your "AVERAGE" numbers.
It's so insightuful.
Another pressure to lie is when you have a direct competitor lying/inflating numbers. How can you compete when they claim they bring 5-10x bigger results?
I have a strict rule - don't lie in your pitch/marketing. There have been multiple times when we can't compete on a statement or people assume we're exaggerating like everyone else. It sucks.
But in the end, if you prove you're not full of shit - it makes for a great relationship with your customers or investors.
Providing proof that your numbers are real should help. You could become the go-to after people realize the competitor is a liar.
Another strategy would be to publicly call them out on their BS, complete with proof. You might need to have a lawyer on standby, though, because liars don't like being called out...
Competitors, OH, yes! Good point. We have one where the CEO posts frequently about his jet-setting lifestyle, and his audience eats it up.
I edited my post, above, the main post here, taking out the bit about the harrowing realities in my life, what I need to do to eat, the eat or heat kind of things... because I figured that I lose everything with this community of primarily really young people, people with more options then me.
But yeah, I have to respectfully disagree with you on authenticity. Be authentic if you are truly making it. If not, well, if I were to prove that I'd really like to be not full of shit, people would just look away.
I understand you.
The line between reality and fantasy is very thin.
Not every CEO or founder can separate that and most fantasies about their products are saving the world (a bit funny).
We should talk about real numbers and estimate what can happen and everything needs to be built properly to have a solid foundation for development.
The answer is there in your article itself!
"Where do you find actionable information from startup founders?"
You are going to find actionable information in the same place that you are already searching - But it's going to be a hunt to find them.
"at least 10% of us are not bullshit artists"
Ah, but every day I glance at posts in here and it's either people very new in their project or it's shit-on-toast, or "wow, look what I got" - without giving us the process.
In fact, in the last six months, I've found one thing I could use, https://www.indiehackers.com/post/25-million-people-viewed-the-gif-i-created-to-promote-my-company-here-s-how-i-did-it-in-1-hour-and-0-budget-a9c8a84fd7
Really, the guy gives what he got and how he got it. Exactly what to do. LOVE shit like this. But it's disgustingly rare.
What an interesting way of marketing something. I’ve never heard of GEO before, though, I consume some form of gif everyday. Thanks for sharing.
Sure, @SALY! I do love it when people share the full story on what they did, truly enough to actually go out and replicate their process, and what it got them. I'm always on the lookout for sure things!
I don't like "promising the world" while having no idea if I will be able to deliver. However, that kind of confidence does work, and sounding uncertain will make otherwise interested people walk away.
That said, there's a big difference between doing your best to be confident,** and outright lying. IMHO, dishonesty will come back to bite you in the end, when you get a reputation as someone who can't be trusted...
** Notice I said "be confident," not "fake confidence." It might sound like the same thing, but there's a subtle mindset difference. Faking confidence will make you feel like more of a fraud, while trying to be confident puts you on the road to self-improvement.
Seems to me that some people get away with lying for a really long time. Remember America's last president...?
Bernie Madoff lasted a long time, and then it all came crashing down.
And I live to see it happen for Donald Trump, and bunch of other charlatans.
Like who? Logan Paul and Gerry V for their crypto scam’s? Or Tim Cook for robbing the European people of 13bn € in taxes? Or zuck for knowingly putting profits before people’s health.
I guess where there is money, there’s liars and scammer.
Saul, I'm curious on what your thoughts would be in pitching potential customers. I'm just launching my landing page for my company, (I'll get back to doing it after writing this comment) and I've gotten 5 commitments from businesses that they'll buy my product once I launch.
In my pitch, should I mention that I might get a product out the door that they can start using but that there's a high probability that I crash and burn and my product gets shut down within the first year? Ha, I don't feel like that's a compelling story but that is definitely the truth.
I don't disagree with you, there is a lot of BS out there. However, I'm not sure how I can be transparent without short-changing myself. Because hopefully the saying "Fake it till you make it" applies to me and I don't actually crash and burn. 🤞
Yeah, we need to feign confidence. You need to speak with first customers as if you're sure your thing will be for years to come.
Yes, it could be like this
I think if the product is good why would you need to lie the product speaks up for itself for example i am currently building an AI tool criov.com i know that their is plenty of products like mine but i know how strong mine is among them sometimes is the product not the pressure
Jeff Bezos, is quoted to have said Advertising is the price you pay for having an unremarkable product or service.
Unfortunately, while 20 years ago, and few products out there, it was enough to have the product speak for itself. In 2023, perhaps you may find in time that we need to promote like mad to get eyes on things.
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